Folding Three Aces

So I've run into the exact same situation twice in the past couple months playing in blogger tournaments.  Here's what happened:

I was in the small blind with A4 suited.  It is pretty late in the tournament, last night there were eight people left and I was in 4th place with about $23k in chips, which was more than average.  The blinds were 500/1000 with a 125 ante.  I just call and bayne_s, who was in the big blind calls.  Bayne was in 1st place at the time.  There is $3k in the pot.  The flop comes down A9A.  I do the cute thing and check.  Bayne bets 3000 & I just call.  The turn was a 6.  I check, Bayne bets 9000 (the pot) and I once again call.  The river was a Q and I push in my last 9000 or so.  Bayne calls and flips over A9 for a full house and I am out.

So, where did I goof this up?

    Not raising preflop? It was a good but not great hand, so I figured I'd limp in & see what happens. I don't think Bayne was going to fold his A9 with any kind of "normal" raise.

   

Not betting out on the flop? I'm not sure betting out on the flop would have told me anything about his hand, but if he raised back into me, I would have known at that point he had something.

   

Not check-raising the flop? I think that this is what I should have done in retrospect.  Raise it up to $9k from $3k and see what he does.  If he calls I know I'm in trouble.  The down side is if he's bluffing he folds and I don't get any more of his chips, which with 8 people left could be important.

   

Not thinking about what the turn bet meant? At the moment he made the bet, I wasn't thinking about why bayne would make a bet that large on such a scary board if he didn't have either 99 or Ax.  I was in full donk mode pushing the chips in the middle.

   

Pushing on the river?  I was somewhat resigned to pushing on the river no matter what happened.  That was another dumb move, there was very little chance Bayne was going to fold if he had me beat and it was unlikely he was going to call my bet if I had him beat.

Usually I let these bad moves go not long after they happen.  This one ate at me for a few hours after it happened, which did a number on how much sleep I got last night.  I played pretty damn good tight (somewhat) aggressive poker for almost three hours and one bad play most likely cost me money, as I was only two people away from the money.

Comments

[Eric, a.k.a. Bone Daddy]

Blind vs. blind, late in the game, you have about a 2% chance of surviving that hand. Only way out I see was a push pre-flop..maybe. If you bet the flop, he would most likely smooth call you, then what are you doing on the turn, most likely getting pot committed. and damn your pocket aces vs. my kings.

[March]

Okay, I never do this but I am going to put my two cents in on the table. Please excuse the rambling; this is stream of consciousness thinking.

I think that you actually hit the nail on the head when you describe your play to call pre-flop and to check post flop as “cute.” You played your Ax as if it was a monster post flop because the flop was AxA but you missed opportunities to gain information by not betting. By that, I mean because you did not raise the chip leader pre-flop you had no “read” on what he may be holding. In addition, you were out of position in the SB. Therefore, his starting card combination pre and post flop is any two. Then you flop what looks like a monster but you play it passive. Remember it only looks like a monster because you have no idea what he called with in the BB. If you led out post flop, he most likely would have smooth called and if you raised pre-flop he most likely would have called or re-raised. Therefore, if you had bet twice before the turn he would have called a raise and a bet in the least. That gives you a lot of information; at that point, it would be reasonable to put him on at least Ax or 99. At the turn if you bet he would have most likely just called but a raise would be possible. Now if you go back and you had bet, he called a pre-flop raise, a bet on the flop, and could have called or raised on the turn when a 6 hits. Okay, at that point you have to believe that he has a hand like a monster A9, 99 or A6 or you were just out kicked. If you did bet on the turn a raise from him makes you, pot committed. I believe a call is in order because the pot odds are too great but may be that is when you have a chance to fold your three Aces. For argument’s sake, let us say he just calls your bet on the turn. Finally, the Q comes on the river. It does not help you but it certainly could have helped him. Now the likely hood that he called pre-flop with AQ or A9-6 or X has to be a possibility after he bets the flop. However, I think he would have re-raised pre-flop with the AK, AQ or AJ. So you are back to putting him on Ax. Now if you play it back if you bet pre and post flop, he called a raise pre-flop, called a bet on the flop (with AxA), bet the turn’s 6, and bet the river’s Q if you checked the turn and river. At that point, you have to take into account what he thinks you have. Did you slow play AK, AQ, AJ, KK or QQ? If so, he can beat two of those big hands and anything else like Ax. Thus now he is betting for value and if you spiked the Q on the river to beat him with a better full house (AAAQQ) than so be it.

To make a long story short, I would have played it the same as you mid-tournament. However, late against a chip-leader, I would have made a bigger than normal raise pre-flop and a pot sized bet post flop to see where I stood. You are missing too much information by not betting because just a call with Ax in the small blind is a lot of trouble. You are out of position and you gave the chip leader too many opportunities: a draw, to slow play a better hand, and position. By betting, you would have pushed him to make a pre-flop move, or a post flop raise. In addition, a bet by you would have put you back in position because he has to respect your continuation bet.

In conclusion, would I have gotten away from this hand? No way, I would have been all-in after a post flop re-raise against his made full house. This hand would have cold decked anyone but if you played it, more aggressively pre-flop you could have been lucky if he re-raised you and then went all-in after the flop. Maybe then, you put him on AK or AQ and you figure you are out kicked and you want to live to fight another day.

[sirfwalgman]

Thats a tough hand.. One one hand you can fold it pre-flop, but four ways any Ax is a strong hand.. Once that flop comes your in deep shit. Especially since Bayne did not raise pre-flop. If there were more people left I fold it pre-flop. If you have a great read on Bayne you might be able to lay it down otherwise most of the time your going broke.

[Bayne_s]

Mattazuma,

I think only chance you have to win the hand is to push pre-flop. But being in BB with A9 and facing a raise from SB I can not actually predict if this is one of the times I would have called or folded.

Usually I would have raised pre-flop but Monday I was checking to see how high I had to finish to pass Iggy on BBT leaderboard.

Clearly if you bet pre-flop and I call, then you bet that flop and I call or raise I almost certainly have better Ace or 99.

You can look at earlier post I did on hand I was involved with along with Smokkee and Hoy where I felt I should have folded AK after they both called my pot size pot bet.

This hand I was betting pot to give impression that I was being big stack bully trying to bluff you off hand.

I think this is one of those cases you chalk it up more to being cold-decked.

Mid april Blinders had some interesting posts on a similar hand:
http://blinderspoker.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html